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	<title>Comments on: Do You Care About Hypothetical Persons?</title>
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	<link>http://singinst.org/blog/2007/07/30/do-you-care-about-hypothetical-persons/</link>
	<description>The Singularity Institute exists to confront the challenge of powerful AI, both the opportunity and the risk.</description>
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		<title>By: Seth Baum</title>
		<link>http://singinst.org/blog/2007/07/30/do-you-care-about-hypothetical-persons/#comment-2044</link>
		<dc:creator>Seth Baum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Aug 2007 00:34:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.singinst.org/blog/2007/07/30/do-you-care-about-hypothetical-persons/#comment-2044</guid>
		<description>Re (Carl Shulman): &quot;living a billion excellent years if vastly less than a billion times as valuable as living for 100&quot;

I believe you mean &quot;vastly less than ten million times...&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re (Carl Shulman): &#8220;living a billion excellent years if vastly less than a billion times as valuable as living for 100&#8243;</p>
<p>I believe you mean &#8220;vastly less than ten million times&#8230;&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Jeffrey Herrlich</title>
		<link>http://singinst.org/blog/2007/07/30/do-you-care-about-hypothetical-persons/#comment-1941</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeffrey Herrlich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2007 16:36:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.singinst.org/blog/2007/07/30/do-you-care-about-hypothetical-persons/#comment-1941</guid>
		<description>I have a little pet idea, that&#039;s still very undeveloped at this point. But it seems to me that with enough intelligence and powerful technology, it should be physically possible to actually converge two people into one person - quite literally. For a visualization, picture two different brains being &quot;fused&quot; into a single brain, a single person. So, have a continuous sytem where this particular cubic centimeter of nano-circuitry creates one person, and this one over here creates a different person. &quot;Fuse&quot; them into one person, and thus they both get to enjoy paradise with the rest of us. Eventually they are all fused into a single post-human person, but none of them ever &quot;dies&quot; in the process. Sounds like a sweet deal to me. Scale the operation so that trillions of different people are being created and fused constantly, then continually recycle the hardware for use again. An idefinite number of &quot;people&quot; would be able to enjoy the future with us. Fun for everybody!!! 
Let&#039;s git-r-done.  :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have a little pet idea, that&#8217;s still very undeveloped at this point. But it seems to me that with enough intelligence and powerful technology, it should be physically possible to actually converge two people into one person &#8211; quite literally. For a visualization, picture two different brains being &#8220;fused&#8221; into a single brain, a single person. So, have a continuous sytem where this particular cubic centimeter of nano-circuitry creates one person, and this one over here creates a different person. &#8220;Fuse&#8221; them into one person, and thus they both get to enjoy paradise with the rest of us. Eventually they are all fused into a single post-human person, but none of them ever &#8220;dies&#8221; in the process. Sounds like a sweet deal to me. Scale the operation so that trillions of different people are being created and fused constantly, then continually recycle the hardware for use again. An idefinite number of &#8220;people&#8221; would be able to enjoy the future with us. Fun for everybody!!!<br />
Let&#8217;s git-r-done.  <img src='http://singinst.org/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Carl Shulman</title>
		<link>http://singinst.org/blog/2007/07/30/do-you-care-about-hypothetical-persons/#comment-1930</link>
		<dc:creator>Carl Shulman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2007 14:17:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.singinst.org/blog/2007/07/30/do-you-care-about-hypothetical-persons/#comment-1930</guid>
		<description>Anne,

I also think that life extension is important in connecting the priorities of those concerned about current people with reducing existential risk.

However, it seems that many people discount additional years of life (at least in the abstract, and probably in a time-inconsistent fashion), so that living a billion excellent years if vastly less than a billion times as valuable as living for 100. I suspect this comes out of an evaluative framework that judges a life as a narrative gestalt rather than the sum of experiences over time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anne,</p>
<p>I also think that life extension is important in connecting the priorities of those concerned about current people with reducing existential risk.</p>
<p>However, it seems that many people discount additional years of life (at least in the abstract, and probably in a time-inconsistent fashion), so that living a billion excellent years if vastly less than a billion times as valuable as living for 100. I suspect this comes out of an evaluative framework that judges a life as a narrative gestalt rather than the sum of experiences over time.</p>
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		<title>By: Accelerating Future</title>
		<link>http://singinst.org/blog/2007/07/30/do-you-care-about-hypothetical-persons/#comment-1892</link>
		<dc:creator>Accelerating Future</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2007 03:24:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.singinst.org/blog/2007/07/30/do-you-care-about-hypothetical-persons/#comment-1892</guid>
		<description>[...] 10% or 20% of the population rather than 99% or 100%. And if you care about the long-term future of humankind as a whole, killing a billion and killing everyone makes a hell of a lot of difference.  [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] 10% or 20% of the population rather than 99% or 100%. And if you care about the long-term future of humankind as a whole, killing a billion and killing everyone makes a hell of a lot of difference.  [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Seth Baum</title>
		<link>http://singinst.org/blog/2007/07/30/do-you-care-about-hypothetical-persons/#comment-1873</link>
		<dc:creator>Seth Baum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Aug 2007 19:17:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.singinst.org/blog/2007/07/30/do-you-care-about-hypothetical-persons/#comment-1873</guid>
		<description>&quot;a discount rate of zero&quot;

I believe you meant to say a discount rate of infinity.  A zero discount rate means valuing everyone equally.  Mathematically, the (time) discount rate comes in in a weighting term (e^(-d*t)), where d is the discount rate.

.....

I want to echo Toby Ord&#039;s recommendation of
http://www.philosophy.su.se/texter/moral_ga.pdf
It&#039;s a good paper.

A consistent semantics quibble I have on this issue is the use of the word &quot;person&quot; because it assumes a speciest view in an otherwise species-neutral topic.  I say &quot;total&quot; for the view that is neutral with respect to hypothetical &lt;i&gt;individuals&lt;/i&gt; and &quot;prior existence&quot; for the non-neutral view, although prior existence only refers to one of a family of views Arrhenius discusses.

See also &quot;Total Vs. Prior Existence&quot; on Felicifia
http://felicifia.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=118
This also came up on a more philosophical post on my Human Extinction DailyKos series
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/7/14/152756/305

Oh, and I strongly support the total view, i.e. caring as much about potential individuals as about actual individuals.

.....

&quot;all possible persons already exist somewhere in the multiverse&quot;

I&#039;m not convinced this is correct, and even if it is, I&#039;m inclined to argue that it doesn&#039;t matter for us, i.e. I would still recommend the same actions either way, unless these other persons/individuals were causally connected to us, eg via wormholing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;a discount rate of zero&#8221;</p>
<p>I believe you meant to say a discount rate of infinity.  A zero discount rate means valuing everyone equally.  Mathematically, the (time) discount rate comes in in a weighting term (e^(-d*t)), where d is the discount rate.</p>
<p>&#8230;..</p>
<p>I want to echo Toby Ord&#8217;s recommendation of<br />
<a href="http://www.philosophy.su.se/texter/moral_ga.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.philosophy.su.se/texter/moral_ga.pdf</a><br />
It&#8217;s a good paper.</p>
<p>A consistent semantics quibble I have on this issue is the use of the word &#8220;person&#8221; because it assumes a speciest view in an otherwise species-neutral topic.  I say &#8220;total&#8221; for the view that is neutral with respect to hypothetical <i>individuals</i> and &#8220;prior existence&#8221; for the non-neutral view, although prior existence only refers to one of a family of views Arrhenius discusses.</p>
<p>See also &#8220;Total Vs. Prior Existence&#8221; on Felicifia<br />
<a href="http://felicifia.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=118" rel="nofollow">http://felicifia.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=118</a><br />
This also came up on a more philosophical post on my Human Extinction DailyKos series<br />
<a href="http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/7/14/152756/305" rel="nofollow">http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/7/14/152756/305</a></p>
<p>Oh, and I strongly support the total view, i.e. caring as much about potential individuals as about actual individuals.</p>
<p>&#8230;..</p>
<p>&#8220;all possible persons already exist somewhere in the multiverse&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not convinced this is correct, and even if it is, I&#8217;m inclined to argue that it doesn&#8217;t matter for us, i.e. I would still recommend the same actions either way, unless these other persons/individuals were causally connected to us, eg via wormholing.</p>
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		<title>By: Toby Ord</title>
		<link>http://singinst.org/blog/2007/07/30/do-you-care-about-hypothetical-persons/#comment-1853</link>
		<dc:creator>Toby Ord</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Aug 2007 11:39:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.singinst.org/blog/2007/07/30/do-you-care-about-hypothetical-persons/#comment-1853</guid>
		<description>You may also want to read

http://www.philosophy.su.se/texter/moral_ga.pdf

by Gustaf Arrhenius, which examines quite a range of views in which future people may not count morally, and shows that while they appear somewhat tempting, they are considerably flawed.

While the SIAI may be rightly skeptical of the value of the bulk of moral philosophy, there are many papers around like this one (and those of Broome and Parfit mentioned above) which are of clear importance. Many, many orders of magnitude hinge on the question of whether future generations count equally to current ones and it is well worth the time to read what several very bright people have already written on the topic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You may also want to read</p>
<p><a href="http://www.philosophy.su.se/texter/moral_ga.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.philosophy.su.se/texter/moral_ga.pdf</a></p>
<p>by Gustaf Arrhenius, which examines quite a range of views in which future people may not count morally, and shows that while they appear somewhat tempting, they are considerably flawed.</p>
<p>While the SIAI may be rightly skeptical of the value of the bulk of moral philosophy, there are many papers around like this one (and those of Broome and Parfit mentioned above) which are of clear importance. Many, many orders of magnitude hinge on the question of whether future generations count equally to current ones and it is well worth the time to read what several very bright people have already written on the topic.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeffrey Herrlich</title>
		<link>http://singinst.org/blog/2007/07/30/do-you-care-about-hypothetical-persons/#comment-1829</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeffrey Herrlich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Aug 2007 20:40:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.singinst.org/blog/2007/07/30/do-you-care-about-hypothetical-persons/#comment-1829</guid>
		<description>&quot;When push comes to shove, I wouldnât sacrifice todays 6 billion people, in exchange for later converting a large blob into 6000 billion people. I may be in the minority, but thatâs my feeling anyway.&quot;

Er, that didn&#039;t come out right. Obviously I didn&#039;t mean to imply that anyone here would willingly sacrifice 6 billion people. Quite the contrary. It was for purely hypothetical purposes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;When push comes to shove, I wouldnât sacrifice todays 6 billion people, in exchange for later converting a large blob into 6000 billion people. I may be in the minority, but thatâs my feeling anyway.&#8221;</p>
<p>Er, that didn&#8217;t come out right. Obviously I didn&#8217;t mean to imply that anyone here would willingly sacrifice 6 billion people. Quite the contrary. It was for purely hypothetical purposes.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeffrey Herrlich</title>
		<link>http://singinst.org/blog/2007/07/30/do-you-care-about-hypothetical-persons/#comment-1827</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeffrey Herrlich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Aug 2007 19:39:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.singinst.org/blog/2007/07/30/do-you-care-about-hypothetical-persons/#comment-1827</guid>
		<description>In the book &quot;The Intelligent Universe&quot; Martin Gardner proposes the speculative hypothesis that future beings could reorder the past using &quot;Closed Time-Like Curves&quot;. I find that a bit unlikely for this Universe - they couldn&#039;t have done a better job?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the book &#8220;The Intelligent Universe&#8221; Martin Gardner proposes the speculative hypothesis that future beings could reorder the past using &#8220;Closed Time-Like Curves&#8221;. I find that a bit unlikely for this Universe &#8211; they couldn&#8217;t have done a better job?</p>
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		<title>By: Nick Tarleton</title>
		<link>http://singinst.org/blog/2007/07/30/do-you-care-about-hypothetical-persons/#comment-1812</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick Tarleton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Aug 2007 12:10:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.singinst.org/blog/2007/07/30/do-you-care-about-hypothetical-persons/#comment-1812</guid>
		<description>&quot;In actuality, seems plausible to conceive that the future actually influences the past&quot;

Why?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;In actuality, seems plausible to conceive that the future actually influences the past&#8221;</p>
<p>Why?</p>
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		<title>By: J.</title>
		<link>http://singinst.org/blog/2007/07/30/do-you-care-about-hypothetical-persons/#comment-1804</link>
		<dc:creator>J.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Aug 2007 09:02:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.singinst.org/blog/2007/07/30/do-you-care-about-hypothetical-persons/#comment-1804</guid>
		<description>In actuality, seems plausible to conceive that the future actually influences the past, not just the other way around. Just because one can&#039;t see it, doesn&#039;t mean it isn&#039;t already there. Maybe the future is already plotting the present and these questions are just a way to perceive our contemporary lack of perspective towards the future. : )</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In actuality, seems plausible to conceive that the future actually influences the past, not just the other way around. Just because one can&#8217;t see it, doesn&#8217;t mean it isn&#8217;t already there. Maybe the future is already plotting the present and these questions are just a way to perceive our contemporary lack of perspective towards the future. : )</p>
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